The Right to Keep and Bear What?

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The most recent challenges to the Second Amendment have come in a couple forms: Who is allowed to possess "arms" , where are we allowed to possess them, and which features can arms have?

Probably the most under-talked about point is what exactly are considered arms, and are rights infringed upon by restricting access to any arms by definition? Can access to just some arms satisfy the constitutional amendment? Are knives and spears considered arms?

Lets take a look at some recent definitions to see how this may all play out. It really is of supreme importance how the word "arms" are defined.

- First, a few modern definitions of “arms” present themselves. Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary defines the noun arm as “a means (as a weapon) of offense or defense; especially: firearm.” Black’s Law Dictionary defines the word arms as “anything that a man wears for his defense, or takes in his hands as a weapon.”

- Federal law fails to define “arms” explicitly, but does identify some sub-groups of arms. For example, the National Firearms Act (“NFA”) does not define arms in general terms, but does exhaustively list what items count as “firearms” under Federal law, including shotguns, rifles, machine guns, silencers, and the catch-all terms “any other weapon” or “destructive devices.” Almost all the types of weapons listed in the NFA are easily man-portable, except for some rockets, missiles, bombs and mines that would presumably qualify as “destructive devices” but which weigh too much to be easily carried by one person.

- The Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act (“OCCSSA”) defines “firearm” as any weapon which is designed as or may be readily convertible to expel a projectile. The definition also includes the frame or receiver of such a weapon, any firearm muffler or firearm silencer, or any “destructive device.” “Destructive devices” include bombs, missiles, rockets, grenades, mines and similar devices, whether they have explosive, incendiary, or poison-gas warheads.

It's pretty obvious that the ambiguity of the definition of "arms" has led to some level of infringement, but does there need to be a legal definition set forth? States and routinely the Federal government propose legislation that would limit features or capacities for firearms that are currently legal to possess. Is there a need to legally spell out firearms that are specifically protected under the Second, or would this set up a future weakness in the Second? Does simply having the option to purchase an H&R .410 bore satisfy the Second Amendment? If not, why, and what would?

What would you define as a legal arm under the law? What if any limits would there be?

Thoughts?
 
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freedom

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Arms is any weapon that can be carried. At least that was the definition of the word in 1776, I believe. It does include knives, swords, etc.

The ambiguity of the word is part of its genius. If an actual definition was set down by the founders, our rights would be more eroded than they are now.
 
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Laufen

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Arms is any weapon that can be carried. At least that was the definition of the word in 1776, I believe. It does include knives, swords, etc.

The ambiguity of the word is part of its genius. If an actual definition was set down by the founders, our rights would be more eroded than they are now.
That's still extremely ambiguous. I could easily carry a suitcase bomb, but less easily carry a quad Ma Duece. Does the law reflect what the average human can carry, what's "designed" to be carried? What I can carry versus what my grandmother can carry?
Ambiguity also allows for legislation like the National Firearms Act to be passed legally, and states like NY to be able to pass a 7 round max magazine limit.
Would simply having the ability to purchase a Swiss Army knife satisfy the Second Amendment?
 
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freedom

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We are living in a legal dictatorship now, being oppressed by the dictionary. If the founders had tried to define what was included in the 2A, it would be used against us now, and nothing not expressly allowed would be forbidden.

Personally, I define arms as any weapon available to an enlisted man in the military, that can be deployed by an individual soldier in self defence without an officers approval. More or less. That would exclude nuclear weapons, and most artillery, but include select fire weapons and smaller explosives like grenades. But, no one cares what I think.
 

Laufen

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We are living in a legal dictatorship now, being oppressed by the dictionary. If the founders had tried to define what was included in the 2A, it would be used against us now, and nothing not expressly allowed would be forbidden.

Personally, I define arms as any weapon available to an enlisted man in the military, that can be deployed by an individual soldier in self defence without an officers approval. More or less. That would exclude nuclear weapons, and most artillery, but include select fire weapons and smaller explosives like grenades. But, no one cares what I think.
I do, in fact that's the purpose of the thread. The ambiguity around the legal definition is a double edged sword for sure.
 
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freedom

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I do, in fact that's the purpose of the thread. The ambiguity around the legal definition is a double edged sword for sure.

Fuck legal definitions, they're part of the reason why we're in the pickle we're in. The question should be what did the term "arms" broadly refer to in 1776, and what the equivalent weapons would be today. At least until the end of the Spanish American war, civilians were always better arms than the military. Custer got whipped by the Indians because he fought a group armed with lever action rifles with trap door Springfields. During the revolution, muskets were issued and the rifles were privately owned, not to mention the privately owned cannons.
 
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Laufen

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Fuck legal definitions, they're part of the reason why we're in the pickle we're in. The question should be what did the term "arms" broadly refer to in 1776, and what the equivalent weapons would be today. At least until the end of the Spanish American war, civilians were always better arms than the military. Custer got whipped by the Indians because he fought a group armed with lever action rifles with trap door Springfields. During the revolution, muskets were issued and the rifles were privately owned, not to mention the privately owned cannons.
Legal definitions are what give our rights power.
 
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Laufen

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Common law along with plain language did, notwithstanding that the right to self defence predates lawyers and the constitution. Legal definitions are whatever the latest group of lawyers, judges, and politicians say they are.
And we have no legal footing to stand upon when our rights are infringed without those legal definitions, lawyers, and judges. In essence, our rights cease to exist when the ability to legally defend them does.
 
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freedom

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And we have no legal footing to stand upon when our rights are infringed without those legal definitions, lawyers, and judges. In essence, our rights cease to exist when the ability to legally defend them does.

The more "arms" has been legally defined, the more arms we've lost the right to own and carry. When arms meant what it meant, before the lawyers and politicians got involved, our right to bear arms was only limited by money and imagination.
 

Laufen

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The more "arms" has been legally defined, the more arms we've lost the right to own and carry. When arms meant what it meant, before the lawyers and politicians got involved, our right to bear arms was only limited by money and imagination.
Ambiguity also leaves the door open, ie the 1994 AWB.
 
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Sheps

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What if we have completely misunderstood the term "bear arms"?
family-guy-right-to-bear-arms-jpeg.243547

Ill-kill-you-with-my-bear-hands.jpg
 
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Kobayashi

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Certainly a proper definition of "arms" could be more clearly defined, but we occupy an awful point in history to open a serious public discussion.
 
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Laufen

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Certainly a proper definition of "arms" could be more clearly defined, but we occupy an awful point in history to open a serious public discussion.
I don't think it deserves a discussion. I think it deserves a well defined clinical definition.
 

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It's a discussion that was making my brain work really hard. I'm currently locked in my Man room. The new wife is already mad at me. So without question I'm pounding vodka in my underwear eating Doritos. I was trying to thing of something a troll that brought nothing to the topic would say. And here we are.
 
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Laufen

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It's a discussion that was making my brain work really hard. I'm currently locked in my Man room. The new wife is already mad at me. So without question I'm pounding vodka in my underwear eating Doritos. I was trying to thing of something a troll that brought nothing to the topic would say. And here we are.
Put down the vodka, drink a quart of water, brush your teeth, give the wife a peck on the cheek and go to bed. lol
 
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