Interesting point on birdshot for HD

[Laufen]

Probably, it just says "all types" when listing bird shot.

Yeah, but that's like saying "all types" of rifles are inadequate for moose. 3" of lead 2's is a lot different than a dove load.

 

[AtlMedic]

For quite a while I kept 3" lead #2's in my hd shotgun, and not because I thought it was a less lethal option.

Obviously no one with an ounce of common sense would consider any shotgun shell less lethal except for the ones designed to be.

 

[Ak4747]

i know its not supposed to be the best but I would bet a 12 gauge birdshot in the close ranges seen in a HD situation would still drop anyone about instantly

Agree 100%

 

[AtlMedic]

Yeah, but that's like saying "all types" of rifles are inadequate for moose. 3" of lead 2's is a lot different than a dove load.

What size bird shot do you think is acceptable for HD?

 

[Laufen]

What size bird shot do you think is acceptable for HD?

Shot size is just one factor, shot quantity another (shell length), and powder charge another consideration. I'll bet that most instances that you encounter were with people being shot with bulk pack dove loads. Low power 7.5-8 shot.

I'd have no problem with a 3" load of # 2's or anything larger at hallway distances. My dad keeps a 3" 2oz. load of lead BB's in his. That'll do the trick, no doubt in my mind.

 

[AtlMedic]

Shot size is just one factor, shot quantity another (shell length), and powder charge another consideration. I'll bet that most instances that you encounter were with people being shot with bulk pack dove loads. Low power 7.5-8 shot.

I'd have no problem with a 3" load of # 2's or anything larger at hallway distances. My dad keeps a 3" 2oz. load of lead BB's in his. That'll do the trick, no doubt in my mind.

Valid point, I can't find any real world examples that list the specifics of bird shot in shootings.

I can't tell you what shells were used in the shootings I saw, I do know at least one was a 3" though.

The issue with birdshot is even if a pellet manages to hit something vital, too small of one will not cause enough damage fast enough to stop them. Bird shot is also much more likely to be stopped or slowed by heavy clothing. Assuming there isn't an issue with heavy clothing it still leaves a nasty looking but shallow wound. Is it better than a pointy stick? For sure, but it won't as reliably put someone down like buckshot. BB is better than a 8 shot but still pushing it.

I used to use no.1 buck because it gained more pellets while still having adequate sized rounds.

 

[Laufen]

Valid point, I can't find any real world examples that list the specifics of bird shot in shootings.

I can't tell you what shells were used in the shootings I saw, I do know at least one was a 3" though.

The issue with birdshot is even if a pellet manages to hit something vital, too small of one will not cause enough damage fast enough to stop them. Bird shot is also much more likely to be stopped or slowed by heavy clothing. Assuming there isn't an issue with heavy clothing it still leaves a nasty looking but shallow wound. Is it better than a pointy stick? For sure, but it won't as reliably put someone down like buckshot. BB is better than a 8 shot but still pushing it.

I used to use no.1 buck because it gained more pellets while still having adequate sized rounds.

We need to go blast some cabbages at 7 yards.

 

[AtlMedic]

We need to go blast some cabbages at 7 yards.

While I'm always up for destroying produce it wouldn't prove much more than how fun it is to shoot vegetables.

 

[Laufen]

While I'm always up for destroying produce it wouldn't prove much more than how fun it is to shoot vegetables.

Yeah, well you'll sing a different tune when you're getting attacked by a pack of wild vegetables.

 

[AtlMedic]

Yeah, well you'll sing a different tune when you're getting attacked by a pack of wild vegetables.

I, for one, welcome our new vegetable overlords.

 

[cbh13]

Which shot size? My guess is that most of those were from the cheap ass low brass dove loads in 7.5 or 8's.

lol, yeah....look what they're shooting. Not all birdshot is created equally.

^ this is also a very good point. big difference between something like a dove load in #8 and a turkey load in #4 or 2

 

[erkinator 2]

slugs or 00 buck is my choice

 

[cbh13]

this is a pretty good video that goes over what a lot of different sizes will do at close distance. Another good point he makes is also using a smaller buck shot like #4 buckshot which provides a nice sized projectile with more pellets than something like 00

 

[Laufen]

this is a pretty good video that goes over what a lot of different sizes will do at close distance. Another good point he makes is also using a smaller buck shot like #4 buckshot which provides a nice sized projectile with more pellets than something like 00

Exactly, and that was with a pansy assed 2 3/4 load. This absolutely confirms my own real world experiences, wandering around rural NE blasting stuff as a kid.

 

[cmshoot]

People ain't cabbages. I must have missed where cabbages were part of the FBI protocol for ammunition testing.

I've shot folks with shotguns, and handled a lot of calls where folks were shot with them. Participated in numerous ballistic tests with shotgun loads in various mediums, using different gauges, shot, slugs and loads. With that real world experience, I only recommend 2 loads; 00 buck and slugs, preferably of the reduced/managed recoil variety.

If I were to shoot from one end of the upstairs to the other, which is very feasible, or the longest shot available to me downstairs, those can be up to a 15yd shot. Bird shot ain't gonna cut it.

What if it starts inside and ends up outside? Also feasible and it's happened to folks many times before. How long will the shot be now?

 

[Mac11FA]

i read an article that asked various SOF guys their tips for home defense.

One of the people in the article said he preferred a semi auto shotgun. He said his first shell was birdshot so if he made a mistake on identifying the target it was less likely to be fatal with the following shots being buckshot and slugs.

Now we all know birdshot is a terrible choice for HD use, but I thought it was interesting. I still wouldn't do it, but interesting none the less.

The whole purpose of USE of DEADLY Force is TARGET ACQUISTION AND IDENTIFICATION! If you have not identified your target you should not be firing, period! Shooting the wrong target should not be an issue if you have identified the target and made the decision to use deadly force. Shooting the wrong person, even with birdshot, is not acceptable as you still have used DEADLY Force.

 

[Leshaire]

Got any pics? Theres been some pics floating around facebook of supposed birdshot injuries, but the spread is so big it makes me think that they were shot at a pretty far distance

Yeah ive heard birdshot spreads at something like one inch per yard traveled... Inside most rooms thats typically going to be like 5 inches wide or less.

 

[cmshoot]

Yeah ive heard birdshot spreads at something like one inch per yard traveled... Inside most rooms thats typically going to be like 5 inches wide or less.

That depends on numerous factors:
-barrel length
-choke
-shot hardness
-velocity of load
-length of forcing cone
-shot cup material/design

 

[Leshaire]

That depends on numerous factors:
-barrel length
-choke
-shot hardness
-velocity of load
-length of forcing cone
-shot cup material/design

Ahh gotcha. I heard it from someone that was arguing the whole "Man just use a shotgun then you dont have to aim!" shit...

 

[cbh13]

The whole purpose of USE of DEADLY Force is TARGET ACQUISTION AND IDENTIFICATION! If you have not identified your target you should not be firing, period! Shooting the wrong target should not be an issue if you have identified the target and made the decision to use deadly force. Shooting the wrong person, even with birdshot, is not acceptable as you still have used DEADLY Force.

very true statement. I cant count all the stories I've heard of a family member killing another member of their family because they thought they were being robbed and shot instantly