Ccw Classes....certification Or Training?

[RangerTim]

Curious of everyone's opinion. Do you feel a CCW class should provide solid range training, or that it is simply a certification and any additional training is on the licensee?


Train them or simply make sure they can hit the target without hurting themselves or someone else?


Had this discussion a few time and wonder what the masses say. Thanks!

 

[Dirtbike]

I think personal opinion that some defensive training would be great! , not only teaching the laws and shooting from 7 to 10ft away but also drawing from a holster and getting the blood pressure/adrenalin up a bit to give the user an example of how the body performs under duress, I'm not sure that many can plan out the mental aspect of what it would feel like to have to use a sidearm in a situation nevertheless draw from a holster as everybody handles stress in different ways. (Personal Experience) I've said it before and I'll say it again; I belive that persons should they decide to conceal carry have a responsibility to train and be competent with their sidearm, all that being said i belive that the current certification process was designed as not to cause an undue burden for obtaining certification, but in no way am I against some defensive tactical training such as drawing and firing from the holster position,

 

[RangerTim]

I had a pretty intense debate recently so I figured I'd tee this one up for the group. lol


Undue burden...haven't looked at it from that perspective. Thanks for the input!

 

[~ZENAS~]

I keep my class sizes small for this very reason. I recognize that most people will never take another class. Whether we advocate more training or not, and whether or not we believe it is their responsibility, more training never hurts. So I structure my classes to get people certified first, then since the classes are small, we still have lots of time to do additional training. We try to teach defensive drills they can use at their home range to work on more than standing still and punching holes in paper. Unfortunately, it is likely the only time they will ever be exposed to such drills. So my classes definitely have defensive training that goes way beyond just certifying them to get a CCW license. Part of the reason I started teaching was this very thing. Too many classes march students through and don't do any real training.

 

[~ZENAS~]

[QUOTE="Chris Timmerman]I had a pretty intense debate recently so I figured I'd tee this one up for the group. lol
Undue burden...haven't looked at it from that perspective. Thanks for the input!

[/QUOTE]
I'm interested to hear the other side of the debate. I mean I get the idea that if you have big classes it may be impossible to do additional training in a reasonably short class time, but I honestly can't think of a single valid argument where someone would be OPPOSED to more training in a CCW class if time permits. That defies logic to me.

 

[RangerTim]

T.L. You hit the nail on the head. The entire reason I started teaching is I was tired of sitting through classes of mind numbing power point and shooting 20-50rds at a bullseye target and only ever picking my gun up off a table. It is ridiculous to think a person that only ever has that experience is prepared to carry. I feel that an instructor of that style is setting up a student for failure.


Fully agreeing that for most students, the training I give them is all they will ever be exposed to I need to give them real training, not just check the box. This is one of the reasons I structured and market my class as a "Handgun Level 1" class and not a "CCW" class. While HG1 meets and far exceeds the requirements of the state it isn't just another check the box class. On top of 1, 2, and 3 shot drills, multiple target engagement drills, I give blocks of instruction on the draw, reload, and malfunctions. When finished I put them on steel and give them 1 shot from the draw on a timer starting at 7yds moving back to 20. It really opens their eyes when they think they're awesome on paper at 3 yrds, but really struggle to hit a single shot at 12, 15, or more yards. It makes them realize the skills they really need to have to effectively use a handgun to defend themselves.


The other side of the discussion/debate I was having is that a CCW class is purely certification, not a training class. He argued it is the instructors job to make sure they are safe and can hit what they are aiming at. Additional training is the responsibility of the student. I guess that mentality works if you want to run 30 people at a time at 50rds each. I won't teach more than 10 in a class. We definitely see eye to eye on this one.

 

[~ZENAS~]

I feel like we see eye to eye on a whole lot of things, with the only real exception being a somewhat abstract position on constitutional law. I'm glad to see other like-minded instructors and I appreciate the work you do.

 

[RangerTim]

Likewise! I'm about to drag you into another thread shortly......lol

 

[David]

[QUOTE="Chris Timmerman]T.L. You hit the nail on the head. The entire reason I started teaching is I was tired of sitting through classes of mind numbing power point and shooting 20-50rds at a bullseye target and only ever picking my gun up off a table. It is ridiculous to think a person that only ever has that experience is prepared to carry. I feel that an instructor of that style is setting up a student for failure.
Fully agreeing that for most students, the training I give them is all they will ever be exposed to I need to give them real training, not just check the box. This is one of the reasons I structured and market my class as a "Handgun Level 1" class and not a "CCW" class. While HG1 meets and far exceeds the requirements of the state it isn't just another check the box class. On top of 1, 2, and 3 shot drills, multiple target engagement drills, I give blocks of instruction on the draw, reload, and malfunctions. When finished I put them on steel and give them 1 shot from the draw on a timer starting at 7yds moving back to 20. It really opens their eyes when they think they're awesome on paper at 3 yrds, but really struggle to hit a single shot at 12, 15, or more yards. It makes them realize the skills they really need to have to effectively use a handgun to defend themselves.


The other side of the discussion/debate I was having is that a CCW class is purely certification, not a training class. He argued it is the instructors job to make sure they are safe and can hit what they are aiming at. Additional training is the responsibility of the student. I guess that mentality works if you want to run 30 people at a time at 50rds each. I won't teach more than 10 in a class. We definitely see eye to eye on this one.

[/QUOTE]
I agree with you and T.L.


When I took my CCW course, I believe it was a 12 hour course and after about 6 hours were done with the in class stuff, and spent 2-3 hours on the range qualifying everyone. The last 3 hours our instructor spent teaching us to shoot while moving, some other defensive skills such as shooting from behind cover, creating space between you an an attacker, and some other nifty things that could legitimately save your life should you ever need it.


My mom recently took an 8 hour class, and said the guy pretty much went over the instructional material, answered only basic questions, and only had them shoot about 80-100 rounds down the range from a standing position. Sounded like just the absolute bare minimum to get a CCW. Funny story, my mom came to the range with me and my brother over the weekend and it was like the first time she ever shot a gun.It was clear there wasn't enough time dedicated to firearm handling in the course.


But more on point, I believe the instructors should cram as much learning experiences in the time they have, meeting the minimum requirements are good, but pretty much everyone is there to learn basic self defense should they ever need it. Watching 6 hours of videos and powerpoints won't help with that.

 

[Dirtbike]

I guess I'm behind the times a bit here. ......the CCW course is only 8 hrs in Ohio now? When I took mine years ago in North Carolina it was a 16 hour course; they did cover much more than the basic course such as David explained, my thoughts are never set in stone; are the requirements that easy these days? ???

 

[RangerTim]

Changed to 8hrs last year. You can actually do part of it online which is ridiculous.


I think there is a balance, covering more material is good, but there are also classes that cover two handed shooting, one handed shooting, shooting on the move, barricades malfunctions, reloads, shooting while flying through the air (a little exaggerated)...and the class description says 100rds. They must be better than I because I don't know how anyone could effectively teach so much with so few rounds and give students enough repetitions to actually gain any skill.

 

[~ZENAS~]

[QUOTE="Chris Timmerman]
The other side of the discussion/debate I was having is that a CCW class is purely certification, not a training class. He argued it is the instructors job to make sure they are safe and can hit what they are aiming at. Additional training is the responsibility of the student. I guess that mentality works if you want to run 30 people at a time at 50rds each. I won't teach more than 10 in a class. We definitely see eye to eye on this one.

[/QUOTE]
His argument misses the point. The instructor's job is not to "make sure they are safe and can hit what they are aiming at", but to give the best possible instruction they can. The requirements of the law as to what a CCW class must have to meet certification is a floor not a ceiling. It lays forth the MINIMUM requirements to get a license. An instructor who believes his job is to do the minimum isn't worth his salt.

 

[RangerTim]

+1 to that. I couldn't agree more.

 

[HOG2K]

My wife and I were lucky that my lifelong friend who retired from Columbus Police was a Instructor of firearms and taught classes on everything pertaining to firearms. He took my wife and I thru the CCW class learning what seemed like A to Z, class room laws, pros and cons to both semi and revolvers. Fix malfunctions in semis, using both hands to fix malfunctions, shooting with both hands... I could go on and on about what we learned but just to say we are so grateful to Lenny for training both my wife and I. He made a special class for just us 3 and we learned so much.


But even though the class was 16 hours long he stressed to us that we needed to continue taking classes and lots of range time. He was so right, we are pretty comfortable holding, carrying and shooting a firearm we realize there is so much more to learn. I was in the Army during the Vietnam era and handled both rifles and hand guns and still learned so much from his class.


So everyone needs to keep training, defensive skills and getting very familiar with your weapon is so important. I thank all of our CCW trainers here, you are a valuable resource for sure!!