41P final ruling, goes into effect 180 days from today.

[NWS]

Fingerprints, passport photos, etc for trusts. No CLEO signature require, but they must be notified. Goes into effect 180 days from today. I would expect all SOTs to sell out in the next couple of days. If you were looking to do a SBR or order a can, then now is the time. NFA wait times are going to skyrocket.

https://www.atf.gov/file/100896/download

@DoglegArms, get in here and sell some cans man!

 

[Willy Leadwell]

It's about time they put a stop to all you loonies running around murdering folks silently with your short barrels...

This is such horseshit. I do want to SBR one more lower. I guess I'd better get it done. uggghh.

 

[Shemp]

Guess I better sbr an AR lower just because


Perfect time to buy ARC22 and ARC 30 cans!

 

[Shemp]

Will the finger printing and CLEO notification be retroactive?

 

[AirOpsMgr]

I didn't even really want to have to SBR one of my rifles, but now I might just do it .....

 

[NWS]

Will the finger printing and CLEO notification be retroactive?

I haven't dug that deeply into the text, but I seriously doubt it.

Edit, just looked, not retroactive, Goes into effect 180 days AFTER it is added to the register.

Also, they removed CLEO sign off on individuals as well. The process will become the same for trusts and individuals. Fingerprint cards and passport photos (which I just did and it cost me 30 bucks) for the individual or for the grantor and all trustees listed on the trust.

Looks like my trust will hold NFA items it already has, but from here on out I will just file as an individual. 30 bucks a pop for every trustee would get expensive quick.

 

[Righter13]

So no more Eforms...?

 

[Shemp]

So no more Eforms...?

Good question

 

[NWS]

So no more Eforms...?

I would think not. At least not form 1s and 4s.

 

[Righter13]

So stupid....

 

[Green Panther]

hmm...

 

[DarthVader]

This bit is interesting...

"new section to ATF' s regulations to address the possession and transfer of firearms registered to
a decedent. The new section clarifies that the executor, administrator, personal representative, or
other person authorized under State law to dispose of property in an estate may possess a firearm
registered to a decedent during the term of probate without such possession being treated as a
''transfer" under the NF A. It also specifies that the transfer of the frrearm to any beneficiary of
the estate may be made on a tax-exempt basis."

Does this basically mean that the only advantage to a Trust would be that Trustees, meaning more than one person, can be in possession of the item?

 

[NWS]

This bit is interesting...

"new section to ATF' s regulations to address the possession and transfer of firearms registered to
a decedent. The new section clarifies that the executor, administrator, personal representative, or
other person authorized under State law to dispose of property in an estate may possess a firearm
registered to a decedent during the term of probate without such possession being treated as a
''transfer" under the NF A. It also specifies that the transfer of the frrearm to any beneficiary of
the estate may be made on a tax-exempt basis."

Does this basically mean that the only advantage to a Trust would be that Trustees, meaning more than one person, can be in possession of the item?

Correct. Although NFA items always transferred tax free on a form 5 to decedents, although it looks like they will now be able to possess them until the form 5 is approved. We basically lost my step dads M16 and Thompson due to what I now think was a dishonest SOT who held the guns for his estate after his death. Had we been allowed to hold them, and had I known about the form 5 back then, I would own both today.

 

[DarthVader]

Correct. Although NFA items always transferred tax free on a form 5 to decedents, although it looks like they will now be able to possess them until the form 5 is approved. We basically lost my step dads M16 and Thompson due to what I now think was a dishonest SOT who held the guns for his estate after his death. Had we been allowed to hold them, and had I known about the form 5 back then, I would own both today.

I just skimmed over the first few pages. I'm the only Trustee on my Trust. My father and wife are "Successor Trustees". Now I'm wondering if they will have to submit prints and photos with a future application?

I have one more can on my to-do list. Guess I'm going to have to move that timetable up a few months.

 

[DarthVader]

@NWS - sent you a PM earlier

 

[SafeCracka]

I saw this posted on another forum.... (@heavyd)

What all of this means is any responsible person in a trust must undergo the following requirements:

Fingerprints
Picture
No CLEO sign-off. You simply notify your CLEO.

Well, who are responsible persons in a gun trust? I will break down the two critical elements.

Responsible persons are:

1) Persons with the power or authority to direct the management and policies of the trust;

AND,

2) Have the power or authority to receive, possess, ship, transport, deliver, transfer, or otherwise dispose of a firearm for the trust.

It appears as though responsible persons are those who meet both elements. If an individual does not meet both of these elements, they are not responsible persons. Thus, the 41P requirements would not apply to that individual.

In NFA Lawyers’ trusts, co-trustees do not have any power or authority to direct the management and/or policies of the trust. Co-trustees do not meet element number one. We draft trusts this way in order to prevent co-trustees from having any control over your NFA weapons or other firearms in the trust.

Based on the face of 41P, our trusts are already 41P compliant. Co-trustees in our trust will never have to send in fingerprints, pictures, or notify their CLEO. Additionally, 41P clearly states that beneficiaries are not subject to these requirements.

As with many new regulations, there will be much litigation over these topics. The ATF may make revisions or opine further on their position, which may change the impact of 41P.

Regardless, NFA Lawyers will keep our clients apprised of any required changes to their trusts, if any. It has been our pleasure to do business with each and every one of our clients. We will do everything we can to prevent our government from infringing on our Right to Keep and Bear Arms.

Sincerely,

/s/ H. Dean Phillips

 

[Thenut]

can someone explain this to me in simple terms

im not an NFA savvy guy

 

[Thenut]

I saw this posted on another forum.... (@heavyd)

What all of this means is any responsible person in a trust must undergo the following requirements:

Fingerprints
Picture
No CLEO sign-off. You simply notify your CLEO.

Well, who are responsible persons in a gun trust? I will break down the two critical elements.

Responsible persons are:

1) Persons with the power or authority to direct the management and policies of the trust;

AND,

2) Have the power or authority to receive, possess, ship, transport, deliver, transfer, or otherwise dispose of a firearm for the trust.

It appears as though responsible persons are those who meet both elements. If an individual does not meet both of these elements, they are not responsible persons. Thus, the 41P requirements would not apply to that individual.

In NFA Lawyers’ trusts, co-trustees do not have any power or authority to direct the management and/or policies of the trust. Co-trustees do not meet element number one. We draft trusts this way in order to prevent co-trustees from having any control over your NFA weapons or other firearms in the trust.

Based on the face of 41P, our trusts are already 41P compliant. Co-trustees in our trust will never have to send in fingerprints, pictures, or notify their CLEO. Additionally, 41P clearly states that beneficiaries are not subject to these requirements.

As with many new regulations, there will be much litigation over these topics. The ATF may make revisions or opine further on their position, which may change the impact of 41P.

Regardless, NFA Lawyers will keep our clients apprised of any required changes to their trusts, if any. It has been our pleasure to do business with each and every one of our clients. We will do everything we can to prevent our government from infringing on our Right to Keep and Bear Arms.

Sincerely,

/s/ H. Dean Phillips

im still at a loss as to how an agency can dictate law defacto via an opinion not issues by any elected official

 

[Thenut]

also, forget silencers

just use a potato

be sure to form 1 your potatos guys

also, a potato is versatile. will work with any caliber

 

[PewPewPewCo]

I just hope the silencer industry survives this